His EXCELLENCY - This is really the time for discussing the general merits and principles. At the same time I should be very willing, if the Council agrees, to have such a discussion as the hon. gentleman intimates on the motion that we go into committee.
Hon. W. KESWICK - I don't say it would be necessary, or that so far as I am concerned I think it probable, only I think there should be an opportunity of making such remarks as might be thought necessary. With that understanding I am quite willing to vote for the second reading.
His EXCELLENCY said he presumed the Bill would now be allowed to pass the second reading, and on the motion to go into committee he would be perfectly ready to hear his hon. friend on the left (Mr. Keswick) or anyone else on the general merits of the Bill. The question now was that the Bill be read a second time.
The Bill then passed the second reading.
His EXCELLENCY said the question then arose about the time of going into Committee. He gathered from his hon. friend on the right (Mr. Ryrie) that ten days ought to be the time from the distribution of the estimates to the discussion. Suppose they reckoned the time from last Thursday and had a meeting a week hence.
Hon. W. KESWICK suggested that it would be better not to fix a day, but to let the Finance Committee intimate to His Excellency when they had finished their work, and then they could have a meeting.
His Excellency adopted the suggestion.
THE PRISONS REGULATION AMENDMENT ORDINANCE,
His EXCELLENCY - This Bill has just been put into my hands, the Prison Regulation Amendment Ordinance, 1880. This is the Bill I explained the provisions of on the last occasion and I don't know that I need add anything more to what I then said, beyond merely reminding you of the fact that my attention has been called by Her Majesty's Government to provisions of the old Prisons Ordinance, No. 4 of 1863, by which the Superintendent was given the power of flogging, and it seems Her Majesty's Government objected to that, and I was asked to explain how such a thing could have come to pass. Of course it was long before my time; I am not in any way responsible for it. And the Secretary of State had his attention drawn to the fact that the present Superintendent had expressed an opinion in favour of retaining that provision of the old law. Well, I referred it to him. We considered his report in Executive Council and the Executive Council unanimously approved of the Bill the Attorney-General drew in this form. Now my hon. friend the Superintendent of the Gaol and Acting Colonial Treasurer is here, and if he wishes I have no doubt he can explain very clearly his views on it.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER - Your Excellency has already got my report. If any member wishes to speak on the Bill I shall be very glad to give any explanation.
The question that the Bill be read a second time was then put and carried nem. con., and the Council went into committee.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER moved amendments to two of the clauses to retain in the hands of the Superintendent of the gaol power to punish idleness or negligence at work by putting the offenders on a diet of bread and water. He said if this were left out there would be no possibility of getting any work done. It was thought it was not a matter for flogging, but at the same time it was necessary to have some punishment for idleness and negligence.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said his reading of the Secretary of State's dispatch was not the same as that of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken. It was thought that in prisons in England this had not been a matter for punishment.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER - In all the prisons I have visited they punished for idleness and negligence, I could not carry on any work if there is no punishment for idleness.
His EXCELLENCY - I should be fully prepared to agree that for idleness such a punishment as bread and water or rice and water should be inflicted.
The amendments were agreed to.
On the third clause, which transfers the power of sentencing to punishment for certain offences by prisoners on the eve of their release from the Superintendent in conjunction with any Justice of the Peace to the Police Magistrate,
Hon. W. KESWICK said the necessity for such an alteration should be understood. He did not like to see the powers of Justices of the Peace changed without some good reason, and it seemed to him that for the offences mentioned the Justices were competent persons with the Superintendent to give the necessary punishment.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER - I may say the Justices have not by the Ordinance the power to give any punishment except in conjunction with the Superintendent, and when it is taken from the Superintendent I think it should go to the Police Magistrate. I think the punishment under this section should be a punishment given only by the Police Magistrate, otherwise a Justice of the Peace would be able to give, without any open court, a fortnight's extra imprisonment. It is rather a difficult thing, too, to get the Justices together. It is not taking away any power they had; they never had it unless they were called in by the Superintendent.
The CHIEF JUSTICE - Do you mean any Police Magistrate in the gaol, or are the prisoners brought before the Magistrate in open Court?
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER - I should say so.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL - I may explain in a word or two as to how I understand this to arise. In a despatch from the Secretary of State, which incorporated a communication from the Home Office, it was pointed out that by a provision in the Amending Ordinance of 1878, which was sent for confirmation, prisoners who were sentenced to short terms of imprisonment were detained in prison beyond the time of their sentence passed by a court of competent jurisdiction, and it was intimated with regard to minor offences that would not be approved, but it was said that if a prisoner was to be punished by imprisonment for offences committed in gaol, he should be regularly tried for the offence, convicted, sentenced, and then he could be detained. Then with regard to the substitution of the Police Magistrate for the Visiting Justices, he might mention that the jurisdiction of the visiting Justices really was exercised by them rather as assessors to the Superintendent of the prison and that their presence was necessary in order to constitute a court for him to award punishments he thought necessary; now the object was rather that this should be distinctly a judicial proceeding in which, not the Prison Superintendent, who was responsible for the prison, but the magistrate as apart from the Superintendent should consider it on the representation of the Superintendent. On that view it was necessary to have someone who was always get-at-able, and one could not always be sure of the services of a Justice of the Peace at inconvenient hours of the day, whereas the Police Magistrate was always available. There is another feature in it, which is this, it gives the executive and regular judicial machinery of the Colony power to deal completely with these matters instead of having to go hunting up and down for a Justice of the Peace.
The Bill then passed.
The Council adjourned sine die.
Page 380
!
His EXCELLENCY -This is really the time for discussing the general merits and principles. At the same time I should be very willing, If the Council agrees, to have such a discussion as the hon. gentleman intimates on the motion that we go into committee.
Hon. W. KESWICK-I don't say it would be necessary, or that so far as I am concerned I think it probable, only I think thors should be su opportunity of making sach remarks as might be thought necessary. With that understanding I am quite willing to vote for the second reading. His EXCELLENCY said he presumed the Bill would now be allowed to pass the second reading, and on the motion to go into committes he would be perfectly ready to hear his bon, friend on the left (Mr. Keswick) or anyone else on the general merits of the Bill. The question now was that! the Bill be read a second time.
The Bill then passed the second reading.
His EXCELLENOY said the question then arose ! about the time of going into Committee. He gathered from his hon, friend on the right (Mr. Ryrie) that ten days ought to be the time from the distribution of the estimates to the discussion. Suppose they reckoned the time from last Thurs. day and had a meeting a week hence.
Hon. W. KESWICK suggested that it would be better not to fix a day. but to let the Finance Committee intimate to His Excellency when they had finished their work, and thou they could have a meeting.
His Excellency adopted the suggestion.
THE PRISONS REGULATION AMENDMENT ORDINANCE,
His EXCELLENCY-This Bill has just been put iuto my hands, the Prison Ragulation Amend- meut Ordinance, 1880. This is the Bill I ex- plained the provisions of on the last occasion and I don't know that I need add anything more to what I then said, beyond merely remind. ing you of the fact that my attention has been called by Her Majesty's Government to provisions of the ld Prisons Ordinance, No. 4j of 1863, by which the Superintendent was given the power of flogging, and it seems Her Ma. jesty's Government objected to that, and I was asked to explain how such a thing could have come to pass. Of course it was long before my time; I am not in any way responsible for it. And the Secretary of State had his attention drawn to the fact that the present Superintendent had ex- pressed an opinion in favour of retaining that pro- vision of the old law. Well, I referred it to him. We considered his report in Executive Council and the Executive Council unanimously approved of the Bill the Attorney-General drew in this form. Now my hon. friend the Superinte dent of the Gaol and Acting Colonial Treasurer is here, and if he wishes I havo no doubt he can explain very clearly his views on it.
Tas ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER-Your Excellency has already got my report. If any member wishes to speak on the Bill I shall be very glad to give any explanation.
The question that the Bill be read a second time was then put and carried nem, con, and the Council went into committee.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER moved amendments to two of the clauses to retain in the hands of the Superintendent of the gaol power to panish idleness or negligence at work by putting the offenders on a diet of bread and water. Ho said if this were left out there would be no pos- Bibility of getting any work done. It was thought it was not a matter for flogging, but at the same time it was necessary to have some punishment for idleness and negligence.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said his reading of the Secretary of State's dispatch was not the same as that of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken. It was thought that in prisons in Eng- land this had not been a matter for punishment.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER-In all the prisons I have visited they punished for idleness and negligence, I could not carry on any work if there is no punishment for idleness. His EXCELLENCY-I should be fully prepared to agree that for idleness such a punishment as bread and water or rice and water should be in- fisted.
The amendments were agreed to.
On the third clause, which transfers the power of sentencing to punishment for certain offences by prisoners on the eve of their release from the Superintendent in conjunction with any Justice of the Peace to the Police Magistrate,
Hon. W. KESWICK said the necessity for such an alteration should be understood. He did not. like to see the powers of Justices of the Peace changed without some good reason, and it seemed to him that for the offences mentioned the Justices were competent persons with the Superintendent to give the necessary punishment.
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER-I may say the Justices have not by the Ordinance the power to give any punishment except in conjunc- tion with the Superintendent, and when it is taken from the Superintendent I think it should go to the Police Magistrate. I think the pun. ishment under this section should be a punishment given only by the Police Magistrate, otherwise a Justice of the Peace would be able to give, without any open court, a fortnight's extra imprison- It is rather a difficult thing, too, to get the Justices together. It is not taking away any power they had; they never had it unless they were called in by the Superintendent.
ment.
The CHIEF JUSTICE-Do you mean any Po- lice Magistrate in the gaol, or are the prisoners | brought before the Magistrate in open Court?
The ACTING COLONIAL TREASURER-I should say so.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-I may explain in a word or two as to how I understand this to arise. In a despatch from the Secretary of State, which incorporated a communication from the Home Office, it was pointed out that by a provision in the Amending Ordinance of 1878, which was sent for confirmation, prisoners who were seu- tenced to short terms of imprisonment were de- tained in prison beyond the time of their son- tence passed by a court of competent jurisdiction, and it was intimated with regard to minor offences that would not be approved, but it was said that if a prisoner was to be punished by imprisonment for offences committed in gaol, he should be re- gularly tried for the offence, convicted, sentenced, and then he could be detained. Theu with regard to the substitution of the Police Magistrate for the Visiting Justices, be might mention that the juris. diction of the visiting Justices really was exercised by them rather as assessors to the Superintendent of the prison and that their presence was nec83-| sary in order to constitute a court for him to award punishments he thought necessary; 20W the object was rather that this should be dis. tinctly a judicial proceeding in which, not the Prison Superintendent, who was responsible for the prison, but the magistrate as apart from the Superintendent should consider it on the repre. sentation of the Superintendent. It that view it was necessary to have some one who was always get-at-able, and one could not always be sure of the services of a Justice of the Peace at incon- venient bours of the day, whereas the Police Ma. gistrate was always available. There is another feature in it, which is this, it gives the executive and regular judicial machinery of the Colony power to deal completely with these matters in- stead of having to go hunting up and down for a Justice of the Peace.
The Bill then passed.
The Council adjourned sine die.
H
380
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